Challenge Layout. Ordsall Road DMU lay by

[Hardwicke]

Looks like after some calculations I can fit my new layout into 18.155 sq feet. There won't be a lot of scenery, just some bridges and a concrete lined cutting
I had a few other potential locations:
Pollockshaws Road, Glasgow
Eglinton Street, Glasgow
Just south of Kings Cross Low Level
Manobier.
I settled on one I could visit readily at Retford.
I'm not sure of a name for it yet. Ordsall Road, Ollerton Road (technically incorrect), West Carr Road, Century Road, Tunnel Road, or DMU lay by, which appears on the original BR plans for the siding. Milepost 64, Retford Dive Under to Whisker Hill Flyover, or Ordsall Road cutting, being other options.
It's very basic being double track mainline with a crossover and a siding. 4 signals of which 3 are ground signals, two with illuminated option letters. 2 bridges within the scene and 2 as visual breaks at the ends. Quite an intense service. At peak times there was an hourly passenger service each way with additional summer services, an endless procession of Merry Go Round coal trains serving 2 power stations probably one train to and from each every 30-40 mins, oil trains, mixed freight, engineering trains, a newspaper train, petroleum coke, coke, and the occasional appearance of specials, incuding 4472.
Motive power was 20's, 25's, 30/31's, 37's, 40's, 47's, 56's and 58's. 114 DMU were the mainstay, with additional 105 and 111, though occasionally Calder Valley 110's appeared and I saw a Trans Pennine and BRCW once. An 08 even trundled through slowly once. I'm not sure how to devise the fiddle yards yet. A full coal train would take up a lot of space but a novel solution would be to run it back under the eventual scenery. A more traditional approach is an oval. The layout will be built on the accurate gradient. It is straight apart from the final foot or so at the Eastern end, however missing off this final part scenically will allow the cutting side further to the West to be nodelled. The southern grassed cutting will for now be ommitted.

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[Hardwicke]

Pollockshaws Road, Shields Road and Eglington Street Glasgow,

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[Hardwicke]

ECML to Whisker Hill Flyover

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[Hardwicke]

Ive had a closer look at my images and the points do indeed seem to be bullhead rail.
Here are some cruel enlargements I have from my collection.
I always remembered it was strange to use bullhead for the points and was told it had something to do with the flexibility. These are considerably sharper than the ones on Whisker Hill Junction.

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[Terry Bendall]

I always remembered it was strange to use bullhead for the points and was told it had something to do with the flexibility.

Perhaps the turnouts had plenty of life left but not the track. When you start investigating track all sorts of funny things turn up. Colin Craig told me once that whilst he has not seen different rail fixings on the same sleeper, he has seen different types on adjacent sleepers. It would depend on that the PW gang had with them at the time. As previously mentioned elsewhere, on Elcot Road we used FB rail with pandrol clips on "wooden" sleepers on the platform road and loop, FB rail with BR2 clips in the bay platform, concrete sleepers on the main line and loop under the bridge and bullhead rail in the sidings.

The CLAG web site has a very useful section on third rail track and this shows that even the conductor rail was of different weights in some places just butt welded together. Prototype for everything.

Many people will look at pictures just for the locos, but the train behind, the track and the infrastructure around are just as interesting.

Terry Bendall

[Tony Wilkins]

I always remembered it was strange to use bullhead for the points and was told it had something to do with the flexibility.

Perhaps the turnouts had plenty of life left but not the track.

Terry Bendall

It may also be the case that the turnout connects to track that is due for closure / removal in the not to distant future and will be replaced with plain track.
I have also come across turnouts where just the crossing has been replaced with a length of plain rail as a temporary measure.
Regards
Tony.

[Hardwicke]

The line was brand new 60' wooden sleeper FB panels on the plain track with bullhead points and lasted this way from 1965 for about 20 years. It's not easy to see if the siding was entirely bullhead or a mix of FB. and bullhead. The up line was resleepered after about 15 years with pandrol concrete panels and later the siding and crossover were removed mid 80's and the whole lot is now plain concrete sleepered CWR. I'm scanning the slides I have so more details may emerge.

[bécasse]

I have also come across turnouts where just the crossing has been replaced with a length of plain rail as a temporary measure.

50-plus years ago, there was a short period on the Southern when the policy was, when signal boxes were closed, to leave crossovers in situ, clipped and padlocked, and with plain rail substituted for the two crossings which were then stored nearby. The theory was that the crossovers could then be brought back quickly into use, worked locally by a handsignalman, if an emergency occurred, the plain rail being substituted in the interim to minimise wear.

The theory was well meaning but bonkers and was quickly abandoned, the crossovers being removed and plain track substituted, once it was realised that it was almost as easy to drop in a new crossover if the need arose. I believe for a while the Region actually retained a couple of sets of made-up crossover panels for that very purpose.

[Hardwicke]

I went down to the real cutting today to conduct a photo survey. Lots taken ! I should be able to count the sleeper now. As I thought, the crossover was in a gap of the drainage grills and the gap is still there. The Down Flyover Junction from Retford North still has original wooden sleepers and BR1 bases !

[Hardwicke]

Another visit today and more checks on the old track on the flyover. More BR1 baseplates, though pandrol are mixed in. 60 foot panels.

[Hardwicke]

Between Ordsall RoadWest Hill Road bridge 194 and the ECML bridge 196A/303A , give or take a few feet it's 35 chains.

West Hill Road/Ordsall Road is 63 miles 73 chains as sprayed on the retaining wall (or 63m 1606yards) according to the bridge plate.

West Carr Road/Ollerton Road 195A is 64m 14ch.
Tunnel Road bridge 196 is 64 miles 20ch and 16'.
The ECML bridge 196A is approximately 64 miles and 30 chains depending on where the measurements for the platforms are (middle??)...

So from Ordsall RoadWest Hill Road bridge 194 to East Coast Main Line bridge 196A Retford, it's 30.30 feet long though at 8 inches wide that's too big at 20.20 sq feet. If the final 10 feet is only 4 inches wide scenically that will give a footprint of 16.65 sq feet.

At 23.38 feet long between Ordsall RoadWest Hill Road bridge 194 and Tunnel Road footbridge 196, that's 15.59 sq feet. 8 inches wide throughout. Both give some space for the Flyover track and bridge footings.

Today has been an evening of lots of calculations.

[Hardwicke]

I have been reliably informed that the crossover was Flat-bottomed rail and so the facing point probably vwas too. Only the point to the sand drag in the siding seems to have wooden chocks on the chairs making it Bullhead.. This fits with new points, a short distance away on the Up Slow of the East Coast Main Line, also being Bullhead, lasting until the 1876 remodelling.

[Hardwicke]

A few more calculations.
35 chains x 66' equals 2310' long not as I had previously calculated. If it was all plain track that would need 38 1/2 60' track panels, each having 25 wooden sleepers (I've counted them on the remaining original panels and photos of the track being laid in 1965). Of course there is up and down lines, less three points and adding the siding (estimated at 6 panels). I've checked in Andrew Dow's book on track which has a section on Flat Bottom track but no drawings of sleeper spacing. He metions BR1 and 2 only differed in the holes : square for BR1 and round for BR2 which uses Macbeth clips instead.

[grovenor-2685]

IMHO, for that vintage you would struggel to find any difference in sleeper spacing between bullhead and flatbottom.

[Hardwicke]

IMHO, for that vintage you would struggel to find any difference in sleeper spacing between bullhead and flatbottom.

Found a photo proving 25 sleepers per 60' panel. The remaining original track confirms that, but also displays some 45' and 30' sections, probably dating from when they removed the old up and down lines, but had built the new track upto it so had to fit the rails into the geometry.

[Hardwicke]

IMHO, for that vintage you would struggel to find any difference in sleeper spacing between bullhead and flatbottom.

But Keith, in keeping with the ethos of "getting it all right", I want to be sure. It impacts on how many baseplates I need. 160 more, or fewer?

[bécasse]

Keith is right. In the mid-1960s 60-foot wooden sleeper panels would have had the same number of sleepers and the same sleeper spacing whether they were BH or FB, albeit that they would largely FB by then. In the absence of specific information to the contrary I imagine that concrete sleeper panels would have been the same too (and a decade earlier there would have been the possibility of concrete-sleepered BH track). The railway was still very traditional at that period - and still very regional.

[Hardwicke]

Post 1930's BH 60' panels had 24 sleeper or 26 on tight curves.
The FB 60' panels I'm researching have 25 sleepers. The spacing is different.

[Terry Bendall]

He metions BR1 and 2 only differed in the holes : square for BR1 and round for BR2 which uses Macbeth clips instead.

err...not quite

The BR1 type rail fixing has three fixing clips, two on one side, and one on the other.

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This the version devised by Colin Craig. A part used etch with the bending jig

The BR2 type, also know as a Macbeth clip is different

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A similar bending jig

Terry Bendall

[grovenor-2685]

The simplest place to find detail on the older FB fixings is the Colin Craig articles on the MMRS website.
https://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/
Note that the BR1 baseplates have 6 holes and, while 3 elastic spikes was normal more could be provided if needed for site conditions or added if the fixings were loosening.

Standard sleeper provision on jointed 60ft lengths was 24 per length for both BH and FB, and in both cases provision was made for 25 or 26 per length where formation conditions or curvature required more support. So finding FB with 25 per length does not imply that FB was different from BH, just that that particulr site was installed at +1 rather than normal spacing.
See, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R2992.pdf
and http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R4157.pdf

[Tony Wilkins]

Here is a copy of the official sleeper spacings for BH and FB plain track.

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It will be seen that the difference is at most half an inch between equivalent track panels.
This translates to 0.006" or 0.15mm in our scale, which I think most would regard as negligible.
Tony.

[Hardwicke]

Here is a copy of the official sleeper spacings for BH and FB plain track.
Tony.

Really appreciated Tony

[Hardwicke]

Had some assistance with the actual distances of three of the four bridges now (Tunnel Road is still unknown as it has no bridge plate and the painted distance has worn off the concrete) Ordsall Road to ECML is 2244 feet.
(63miles 74 chains to 64 miles 28 chains )
That works out as just over 37, 60' plain track panels per line. The layby is about the length of a four car DMU 64' carriage.
As West Carr Road bridge is 64 miles and 23 chains a fairly good guess is that Tunnel Road is 64 miles and 26 chains.
I'm estimating I'll need at least 4400 baseplates (44 panels ×25 sleepers ×4 rails) plus the chairs for the curves on the points and small panel between the points on the layby that give it a wider than 6" space from the running line.
Correct me if I've got it wrong.

[Hardwicke]

I was wrong.
The siding is bullhead. Allowing for the points it's 3500 baseplates..
I think...

[Hardwicke]

I checked today and the 1960's Westinghouse relay boxes are no longer there. They're not like most of the 3D printed stuff available so I'm looking for any that still exist for dimensions. They have panelled sides and doors and a rounded top.
Anyone know where any remain?