Norton Brook (a mendip slow burner...)

[Worzels Works]

You know when you just have to start something before the mojo slips away on a project you've always fancied... as a pre warning this could well be an excruciatingly slow project...

I mentioned in my opening thread that I would be starting a layout thread soon, after all this is what it's all about, that completed scene you can look right into, a picture you can see moving and almost smell, 3D artwork... (okay i might be getting carried away, my skills are not up there with some of you genuine artists I have joined on this forum) but I didn't think it would be this!

So then, what is Norton Brook? Yes it's another Mendip coal fields Limpley Stoke and Camerton esque Western region branchline, hanging on by the very thread to the last coal vein it can. Not an exact model of what was but somewhere oddly familiar, an NCB run pit that churns out a couple of wagons each day, a battered and practically falling apart sleper and ash platform that has seen the last auto coach wheeze past, what was once the general goods siding for the village and the remains of a sharp 1/25 climb to a further pit long since fallen silent.

Norton Brook is actually a real stream that feeds into the Wellow Brook just below, you guessed it, Wellow! (you can take the boy off the S&D etc. etc.) and I've imagined there was once a GWR branchline from radstock to Norton St Phillip (great pub there). The branch was never really for the passengers and only ever had a token service but there were a couple of coal pits the line strategically passed, Norton Brook Pit and one up an incline nearer the village of Faulkland.

But why a time agnostic delapidated pit set anywhere from 1955 through to 1985? This is the simple bit! I'd picked up a number of Planet Industrials Accurascale MDO's, an oxford rail Janus and a Hornby Peckett late last year on the cheap with the idea of getting back into standard gauge since the bullhead 00 track had come along, which inevitably sat there as I wasn't going to build my own trackwork for just normal 00, I didnt see the point. (geddit ) However with the real discovery of P4 and the obvious increase in realism, given the great support there is for chasing as much perfection as you can it seems like a perfectly logical baby step before leaping into finescale narrow gauge, and the baby step into P4? RTR conversions. Yes I'm afraid that is what most of this will end up being, I'll admit that now. But I'd still like to do this right, lets say the line from Frome to Radstock stayed open for the modicum of coal traffic, what would it have been like? That's the flip side of the coin I'd like to model, not a 14xx wheezing past but a Dutch 33 or 26 with a couple of Turbot's rolling up the line on track lifting trains, the Janus clanking away down to radstock with 21T MDO's on their last lap. Then I guess 'just' enough stock to run a late 50's scene wouldn't hurt either, would it? Who isn't partial to a grubby 14xx...

All in good time, but I'm looking forward to the Judith Edge chassis etches coming back into stock (3rd of Jul I'm told), getting on with P4ing some wagons, when I can get post sent to my location abroad for the while and practicing building some pointwork... plenty of shopping to do this weekend

oh and here is a v1 of the trackplan, I must admit it is a shameless combination of both James Hilton and Chris Nevard layouts (Pont-Y-Dulais and Polbrook Gurney) what are the collective thoughts? ideas? complaints? all welcome!

Moss Hill V1.jpg

varying levels of green denoting the thicknes of scrubby woodland, brown for the token storing something yard, black platform with the line behind the old start of that hefty incline to add in some track level variation on the layout.

no the recent thread about converting a class 24/5 hasn't influenced my ideas, honest guv!

[Worzels Works]

Taking Stock

This project isn't intended to be a massive collection that I need to make, just enough to get me settled in to building brass chassis and track to P4 standards, but I'm enjoying the research element and have spent most of today in the sunshine reading up about the mendip coal fields (a particular fondness not only for growing up an hour south on the S&D mainline but also cutting my teeth as a cleaner and trainee fireman on Peckett 'Kilmersdon' down at the Helston Railway).

Lets give the Norton Branch a bit of context, Radstock West closed to passengers in 1959, taking with it our subject might have been, leaving it freight only. In reality the wagon works at Radstock kept the line useable until 1988, with the last coal coming out of Writhlington in 1973. We've got an adjusted time period then, 1955-1973 and a right hand marker for Norton Brook Pit closing (1971-2, with the line being semi lifted and abandoned in '73). That gives oportunities for modelling lifting trains with departmental wagons if I really feel the urge. What I'm struggling with starting researchwith is NCB operations and coal mine ownership, if anyone has any pointers for where to start I would really apreciate that, could there have been internal user wagons working down to radstock? Shockingly I wasn't even thought about when the last coal wagon rolled out of there... I apologise for using this as a bit of a scrapbook thread, jotting down my learnings as I go in a blog like manner.

With the above information I know I'm looking at modelling BR Blue, pre-TOPS as the main focus on stock to research, so a couple of 21T Dia 1/107's (already in stock), one or two Dia 1/148 24T hoppers and a good smattering of 16T mineral wagons including the XP variants too. That's if I've identified some of the wagons below correctly. These pictures below also give me some options for locos that were in the area for when I feel confident enough to tackle one of those conversions!







Certainly some fun to be had with this... I think that'll do it for research tonight though!

[Tim V]

Here's the Peckett at Kilmersdon back in '72, I had a cab ride on it down to the incline head.

Kilmersdon 28-06-72 Ilfomatic 9- (5).jpg

Internal user wagons on the right. Only used up here. No internal users at Writhlington, only 16Ts by this date.

[Worzels Works]

Brilliant Tim, when she actually worked for a living! Must say I was fond of the S&D blue, but certainly appreciate it wearing its working rig!

[Tim V]

Do you have a copy of the Somerset Coalfield by Downs & Warrington? It was reprinted a few years ago.

[Worzels Works]

After a brief catch up with home unfortunately not, nor in dad's library it seems, I'll have to have a search for it on the seccond hand e-stalls! From a quick Google looks like a valuable resource.

[Noel]

one or two Dia 1/148 24T hoppers and a good smattering of 16T mineral wagons including the XP variants too. That's if I've identified some of the wagons below correctly

In the picture with the 08, the nearest hopper is a 1/146 unfitted welded 21T, followed by a 1/142 or 1/144 13T. The third one has a branding on the side, which looks like "House Coal Concentration"; if so this is a 1/146 [or early 1/147 conversion] 21T VB with roller bearings. The last one is probably another unfitted welded 1/146; some of these also had roller bearings. I/148 24.5T hoppers didn't appear in the North Somerset coalfield so far as I know [Tim will know more than me on this], I suspect because their screens couldn't load anything higher than a 21T. No 9ft wb 16T mineral VB should have carried XP branding; if any did it was an error. The 394 Palbrick conversions of 1975 with 1/099 bodies had 10ft wb, and some had roller bearings, but photographs suggest that even these were not XP. This is not particularly surprising, as, to quote from the 12/1958 edition of BR87209, XP over WB indicated "Vehicles suitable for running on passenger trains according to wheelbase shown".

could there have been internal user wagons working down to radstock?

Internal user wagons were banned from BR worked lines [hence the description]; their normal use was to take coal to a nearby NCB landsale site, or to take coal to a washery, in both cases over NCB track. Coal being carried by BR to a washery elsewhere would be in BR vehicles.

[John Palmer]

Plenty of nostalgic interest here for me as a participant in the Somerset & Dorset Trust's failed attempt in the 1970s to set up a light railway and mining museum based on the pithead buildings at Writhlington. I think some of the internal user wagons at Kilmersdon were acquired for this project, including the wagon with blanked side door on the extreme right of Tim's picture. http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/radstock_htm_files/35.jpg takes you to a better view of what I believe to be this wagon after delivery to Radstock S&D following closure of Kilmersdon Pit. Midway 'twixt ground level and the footplate of Hawthorn Leslie 'Isabel' is a younger edition of our group's resident electrical and engineering wizard Gordon Dyte. The wagon under discussion was, I think, probably delivered by road, notwithstanding the potential availability of a railbourne route via the incline, Radstock West and the 1966 chord between the North Somerset Railway and S&D; this reinforces the point that, as an internal user, such a wagon should not have found its way onto BR metals.

The bottom left picture of the group of four monochrome shots should not be taken as representative of rolling stock to be seen in North Somerset in the 1970s, as they show departure from Radstock of part of the S&D Trust's collection, including an ex-Frodingham packing van intended for restoration to panelled Gresley glory, and much lamented ex-LSW Ironclad Brake Third no.3204, the bodywork of which subsequently succumbed so as to leave only the underframe available for a restoration project.

The Kilmersdon wagons never fulfilled their intended purpose as part of the S&D Light Railway's stock, but it is thanks to their availability as receptacles that various S&D artifacts, including Burnham signals and an S&D water column, were evacuated from the Radstock debacle and saved for storage at Washford.

[Tim V]

After a brief catch up with home unfortunately not, nor in dad's library it seems, I'll have to have a search for it on the seccond hand e-stalls! From a quick Google looks like a valuable resource.

It was reprinted by Radstock Museum. They may have some copies still.

[Worzels Works]

In the picture with the 08, the nearest hopper is a 1/146 unfitted welded 21T, followed by a 1/142 or 1/144 13T. The third one has a branding on the side, which looks like "House Coal Concentration"; if so this is a 1/146 [or early 1/147 conversion] 21T VB with roller bearings. The last one is probably another unfitted welded 1/146; some of these also had roller bearings. I/148 24.5T hoppers didn't appear in the North Somerset coalfield so far as I know [Tim will know more than me on this], I suspect because their screens couldn't load anything higher than a 21T. No 9ft wb 16T mineral VB should have carried XP branding; if any did it was an error. The 394 Palbrick conversions of 1975 with 1/099 bodies had 10ft wb, and some had roller bearings, but photographs suggest that even these were not XP. This is not particularly surprising, as, to quote from the 12/1958 edition of BR87209, XP over WB indicated "Vehicles suitable for running on passenger trains according to wheelbase shown".

Hi Noel, thanks for the detailed descriptions and corrections with regards to wagon designs also, I'll have a think about how to do a couple of 1/146 wagons, just to swing the changes. I've been able to pick up a couple of bits on the sales section including a few 16T mineral wagons in need of P4 conversion, something to give the Rumney chassis a go with. From the research it seems you can't have enough 1/108 or 109's! I should be able to have a go at covering up any mistakes in weathering attempts with how grubby the wagons got.

Internal user wagons were banned from BR worked lines [hence the description]; their normal use was to take coal to a nearby NCB landsale site, or to take coal to a washery, in both cases over NCB track. Coal being carried by BR to a washery elsewhere would be in BR vehicles.

This is key on what I was misunderstanding, thanks for clarifying! I sppose I can have one tucked in the siding rotting away perhaps...

John thanks for extra info confirming the wagon move, must have been an exciting time down at radstock, how close did the group get to having a running railway and saving some of the line?

[davebradwell]

You don't have to look far for a 146 hopper - it's a Parkside PC77. If you get an MRJ 173 there is an overview of assembly and how to spring them without chucking anything away.

DaveB

[Worzels Works]

You don't have to look far for a 146 hopper - it's a Parkside PC77. If you get an MRJ 173 there is an overview of assembly and how to spring them without chucking anything away.

DaveB

This is exactly why I'm glad there is this forum to go with S4Soc membership, and all of the collective knowledge of the members! thanks Dave

[John Palmer]

John thanks for extra info confirming the wagon move, must have been an exciting time down at radstock, how close did the group get to having a running railway and saving some of the line?

Looked at with hindsight, I fear that there were just too few S&D enthusiasts around at that time with the skills range required to bring into being a light railway/mining museum complex capable of long term survival. As it turned out, the project foundered at an early stage for want of finance when a substantial increase in the price of scrap steel put the cost of acquiring the existing track beyond reach - and it was track that was needed from the outset to convey visitors to the mining exhibit at Writhlington from where they had parked their cars at Radstock; it wasn't feasible to let the existing track go and replace it at a later date. In any case, in those days it would have been a gargantuan task to persuade prospective visitors that a pithead in remote North Somerset was a 'must-see' in numbers sufficient to sustain the project. So it was that we were compelled to evacuate Radstock and make a new base at Washford on the West Somerset Railway, where the S&D Trust prospered for some forty-five years until being ejected in what I regard as a shameful exercise on the part of the WSR plc.

An exciting time? All I can say is that, as a young man then, I enjoyed enormously the time I spent and the lifelong friends I made at Radstock. It was a modest enough introduction to working with steam engines, but it acclimatised me to the unglamorous work of preparation and disposal, in return for which I earned the opportunity, as a trainee fireman, to say that I was amongst the last to work steam over original Somerset & Dorset metals.

Going back to those Kilmersdon wagons, I've come across a picture of a Class 47 propelling ar least one of them over the S&D level crossing at Radstock, suggesting that despite their internal user status they made the transit to our Radstock base by rail. Possibly this was a movement of which the Powers That Be in Bristol remained unaware...

[Noel]

Going back to those Kilmersdon wagons, I've come across a picture of a Class 47 propelling ar least one of them over the S&D level crossing at Radstock, suggesting that despite their internal user status they made the transit to our Radstock base by rail. Possibly this was a movement of which the Powers That Be in Bristol remained unaware...

Doing this without approval would have been a big risk for all the staff involved [including supervisory staff from two different departments] if something went wrong in transit. As a 'one-off' event, I would have thought that something similar to the procedure for conveyance of contractors' wagons on their own wheels [BR Rule 31] would have applied, with prior inspection(s) by a Wagon Inspector to ensure that any repairs, etc which might be necessary were carried out and confirm that the vehicles were acceptable to run the distance required. Probably there would additionally be agreed restrictions on speeds, and possibly provision for intermediate inspections if these were felt to be necessary, with the Inspector travelling with the train and the whole event arranged for a Sunday.

[Tim V]

Going back to those Kilmersdon wagons, I've come across a picture of a Class 47 propelling ar least one of them over the S&D level crossing at Radstock, suggesting that despite their internal user status they made the transit to our Radstock base by rail. Possibly this was a movement of which the Powers That Be in Bristol remained unaware...

The wagons came down Kilmersdon incline, and made their way to the S&D Circle site by rail. At that time, the Radstock branch was a long siding, worked under OEIS rules. Picture of the wagons at the bottom of the incline.

Radstock 1974 13- (3).jpg

The 2-8-0 was transported to Washford by rail, but was the other stock was transported by road? Certainly, some of the Kilmersdon wagons made it to Washford.

[essdee]

John, Tim,
Ah happy days! Dad and I helped out barrowing concrete to replace the rotted timber flooring in the toilets at Radstock,but apart from attending various Open days, that was about it; I was about to fly the nest to Lancaster, then dismantle a cellar full of railway, when the rest of the family moved to Huddersfield a few years later.
I believe there are pics of NCB wagons being offloaded from road trailers, will look in Pines Express..
Cheers,

Steve

[essdee]

Kilmersdon to Radstock NCB movement - an update,

Chris Handley's 'Radstock Coal and Steam', vol 1, chapter 7, covers the period leading up to final closure at Radstock. On p.129 a photo from 'Steve Ehrlicher collection' shows working '8B09' with class 47 (aka Brush Type 4, 'Duff', etc..) 47185 propelling seven open wagons, six clearly NCB internal user, plus a WR 'Toad' brakevan, through Radstock's Down platform towards the yard, at a date in 1973. Full tree foliage in the background suggests that this pre-dated the closure of Kilmersdon/Writhlington pits on 16th November 1973.

The 2-8-0 and last items of rolling stock, excluding the NCB wagons, made the final BR workings over the Radstock level crossings on 16th Oct 1975 - I was by then in Lancaster and celebrating my 21st! When /how the NCB wagons had vacated the site is not mentioned.

Further, SDRT newsletters suggest that the wagons arrived at the Trust's new base at Washford, via Bishop's Lydeard, in May 1977 and a matter of weeks afterwards. Whether they arrived at BL by rail or road I cannot say.
By 1977, Manchester beckoned, and railways, real or model, were very far from my mind!

But not for that long......

Steve

[John Palmer]

Possibly Steve Ehrlicher's photograph shows the arrival at Radstock North, in addition to the wagons brought over from Kilmersdon, of the Toad subsequently restored to GWR livery as seen in the picture of S&D Trust stock being propelled over the chord to the North Somerset line.

I can say with high confidence that the ex-NCB wagons were not included in the working of Trust stock from Frome to Norton Fitzwarren that took place in early 1976 - the move from Radstock to Frome having been carried out the previous autumn. From memory, the formation of that working was BR locomotive, 53808, Ironclad BTK (brake end leading), and ex-GNR BFK (now at Mangapps). Can't recall what other stock, if any, was included.

We had put in a good deal of work to ready the 2-8-0 for the journey to the West Somerset. Tender bearings had been re-metalled and scraped in, and a long handle installed from the cab to work the ratchet and pawl mechanism on the Silvertown lubricator that fed the driving wheel axleboxes. Normally this would have been driven by a link from the motion, but had to be manually worked throughout the journey, mainly by yours truly.

I think we were supposed to have been subject to a 25 m.p.h. speed limit throughout the run, but I have a distinct memory of us flying down the bank through Bruton at an appreciably higher speed before being turned in at Castle Cary. Very shortly after arrival at Cary we were overtaken by an HST, and I rather suspect that someone - perhaps the bobby at Witham? - had tipped our driver the wink that he was being rapidly overhauled and asked if he would kindly get a move on. Nearside trailing axlebox had warmed a little, but otherwise no harm done.

[garethashenden]

The last time I was in the UK, in 2019, I stayed in that pub in Norton St Philips. It is indeed a good pub, at least from my American perspective. Its also a very charming village. I look forward to seeing the layout develop!

[Martin Kelly]

I've just remembered that I have a back issue of Railway Bylines somewhere with an article about Kilmersdon Colliery. Would you like me to scan it and upload here for you?

[Hardwicke]

I'm surprised at the photo of 7064 as I thought GW Toads had been banned from non pw use due to only having veranda access at one end. Certainly in the "blue" loco era.

[John Palmer]

I'm surprised at the photo of 7064 as I thought GW Toads had been banned from non pw use due to only having veranda access at one end. Certainly in the "blue" loco era.

Given their position immediately behind the locomotive, they were apparently not being used to brake the train. Possibly they were en route to Marcroft Wagons' works at Radstock for some attention.

[Noel]

Eric Gent, in BR Brake Vans and Ballast ploughs, states that the majority of the 1/502 BR version were withdrawn in 1966/67, but a few lasted longer. four not being withdrawn until 1977, by which time they were TOPS coded CA018A. GW design brake vans were always 'RU Not in Common Use' as the other regions didn't like them much, but the implication of Gent's comments seems to be that the WR carried on using at least a few of them well into the 70s.

John has offered one possible explanation for their presence; another is that they are VB and acting as a fitted head, since the Hymek was, relatively speaking, a bit light [74 tons against 108 for an EE Type 3], which somewhat limited its ability to stop unfitted stock.

[Hardwicke]

Sure I saw a Toad in a PW train at Retford in the 1980's. Olive green livery.

[Noel]

Sure I saw a Toad in a PW train at Retford in the 1980's. Olive green livery.

Quite possible. A lot were used by Engineers on the WR and other regions after withdrawal from traffic.